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Thread: Who is the $4CDC?

  1. #1

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    Who is the $4CDC?

    Exactly who makes up the $4CDC? They are now a large chunk of debt for the CRC yet their make up is somewhat of a mystery. At one time on the city website there was a doc that had Richard Taylor III as president, Ron Carter as vice president, and Bruce Kimball (carmelbruce) as secretary. A recent tweet by Bruce said board members don't get paid in answer to how much he gets paid for being an officer. Who is on the board and who is chairman? How much is the officers salary? How many other positions/employees what are the positions, and how much is salary? CRC salary is now over $500k.

  2. #2
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    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    Gregg this should help you. The only change is Michelle is no long on the board and was replaced by Ron Carter who is one of the most knowledgeable citizens in Indiana when it comes to community redevelopment. There are only 3 members, none of who are paid. They have no paid employees. Why is it forgien to you that members of the community would volunteer their time and talents to the betterment of the community? Are you paid as part of your milita organization?

    "Carmel City Center Community Development Corporation
    The Carmel City Center Community Development Corporation (4CDC) is a newly formed public corporation under the provisions of the Indiana Nonprofit Corporation Act of 1991. The purpose of the 4CDC is to finance and lease the office building separate from the CRC. The City of Indianapolis used Community Development Corporations to finance and lease the Murat Theatre, the Circle Block Parking Garage, and other downtown projects. The Board of Directors of the 4CDC includes Carmel Clay residents Richard F. Taylor III, President; Michelle Krcmery, Vice President; and Bruce Kimball, Secretary."

  3. #3

    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarmelBruce
    Gregg this should help you. The only change is Michelle is no long on the board and was replaced by Ron Carter who is one of the most knowledgeable citizens in Indiana when it comes to community redevelopment. There are only 3 members, none of who are paid. They have no paid employees. Why is it forgien to you that members of the community would volunteer their time and talents to the betterment of the community? Are you paid as part of your milita organization?

    "Carmel City Center Community Development Corporation
    The Carmel City Center Community Development Corporation (4CDC) is a newly formed public corporation under the provisions of the Indiana Nonprofit Corporation Act of 1991. The purpose of the 4CDC is to finance and lease the office building separate from the CRC. The City of Indianapolis used Community Development Corporations to finance and lease the Murat Theatre, the Circle Block Parking Garage, and other downtown projects. The Board of Directors of the 4CDC includes Carmel Clay residents Richard F. Taylor III, President; Michelle Krcmery, Vice President; and Bruce Kimball, Secretary."
    He is asking some good questions. Why do you have to add your two cents of BS "your milita organization." We all know by now that you have figured out who and where everybody lives, so please move on to something new.

    As to the topic, if everyone is a volunteer, why is CRC's salaries over $500K?
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Ronald Reagan

  4. #4
    Community Moderator Kiel's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmallare
    He is asking some good questions. Why do you have to add your two cents of BS "your milita organization." We all know by now that you have figured out who and where everybody lives, so please move on to something new.

    As to the topic, if everyone is a volunteer, why is CRC's salaries over $500K?
    mmallare, what Bruce posted is a summary of the 4CDC that is typically added to the end of press releases.
    “The moment when someone attaches you to a philosophy or a movement, then they assign all the baggage and all the rest of the philosophy that goes with it to you. And when you want to have a conversation, they will assert that they already know everything important there is to know about you because of that association. And that's not the way to have a conversation.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  5. #5
    Community Moderator Kiel's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    I think it'd be prudent to post an article from the Indianapolis Business Journal for the benefit of those who aren't up-to-speed on this. I'll post a small portion here and you can read the full article on their web site:
    Quote Originally Posted by Indianapolis Business Journal
    Much of the 4CDC’s revenue comes in the form of grants from the commission, which oversees tax-increment financing districts that generated $19 million in 2010.

    Yet the details about its revenue sources and grant-making activities remain private. President Richard Taylor declined to answer questions, as did Haas.

    Public records show that on Nov. 1, the commission agreed to make four separate grants to the 4CDC totaling $13.3 million.

    Haas explained to the commission in a special meeting that those grants would back up lines of credit, which would be used as cash reserves, to cover debt service and to free up funds for Palladium operating expenses.

    The commission also agreed in June 2010 to provide the 4CDC $10 million. The reason for that grant is not clear.

    The 4CDC’s real power is the flexibility it provides to the redevelopment commission in financing its various expenses.

    By state law, the commission has to spend its tax-increment financing revenue on capital projects. That means the redevelopment commission couldn’t directly support the performing arts center’s expected $5.5 million budget gap.

    The 4CDC is subject to the same restriction, but it has other revenue sources like the ticket surcharge. That means it can shift TIF-backed grants from the commission to cover capital projects and spend non-TIF funds on other types of expenses.

    This story was originally published in The Indianapolis Business Journal on November 10, 2011
    http://digital.ibj.com/olive/ode/ibj/La ... w=ZW50aXR5
    “The moment when someone attaches you to a philosophy or a movement, then they assign all the baggage and all the rest of the philosophy that goes with it to you. And when you want to have a conversation, they will assert that they already know everything important there is to know about you because of that association. And that's not the way to have a conversation.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  6. #6
    Charmeleon Rick's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    mmallare - I agree with you on no need for the petty shots. I'm really impressed with the overall level of discussion. Free of sniping, attacking and other issues that we had on the IndyStar site.

    Bruce, Nice job on proactively providing the information that was requested. It certainly will help us all with our credibility if we provide links or information that relates to the question/discussion in the beginning of the post.

    Think of the shot in the arm it gives your post. If 100 people read your post you'll know that 100 had the opportunity to be exposed to all the data referenced in the post vs 100 that get your post but x% ignore it for lack of detail, interest or credibility .

    Should help keep all of us on the same page.
    “It’s what you learn after you know it all that counts.” John Wooden

  7. #7

    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    It's been my experience over the years, that, as much as we'd like to think that most folks volunteering their time for any board, commission, etc., do so for the right reasons, but many times, and in many cases, it just isn't so. A good majority of them that "sign up", so to speak, do it for compensation, or power. Since the board isn't getting "paid", then I guess, for some, we are left to wonder, what's in it for them.
    I know it can be a synical way of looking at things, but, in light of all that has gone on, it certainly brings pause, doesn't it?

  8. #8

    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    I guess I'm new to this party. The 4CDC is a passthrough for CRC funds? The CRC gives them $10M, then they dole out that money as grants, but those "grant making activities" are private? Is that even legal?

    Why can't the 4CDC "grant" money to a PI to investigate stuff?

    Just read the IBJ link. Fascinating stuff. I guess not "illegal." But.... wow. Just... wow.
    Georgie Porgie, Puddin' and Pie, Whatever the spin, the cake is a lie,
    When the facts come out, the the truth will stay, But will Georgie Porgie run away?

  9. #9

    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    I never have, nor will accuse 4CDC officers themselves of doing anything for direct financial compensation. There is no reason to believe Bruce is lying about that, and I know enough about its president to be of the opinion that he's a decent human being with good intentions.

    Knowing what I've learned, it's impossible to ignore the fact that a lot of people are gaining financially from dealings in Carmel at the hidden expense of others, and the 4CDC is an agent of this. Loopholes are being exploited. Advantages are given to some competitors while others suffer from subsidized competition. The 4CDC helps to obscure this, as well as playing some part in very shady dealings to cover up bad financial decisions of the CRC (the energy center scandal is the most prominent example).

    Entities with the most to gain (some of whom I do believe have inappropriate intentions) are the reason the 4CDC exists, and there are hundreds of millions of dollars worth of incentives for the 4CDC to be in place doing what they do. If the CRC and mayor could legally and politically do everything they wanted without having to create a third party, there would be no need for the 4CDC to exist. The fact that the 4CDC could never withstand the public scrutiny of opening its books is the first reason we all should be concerned and demand better transparency. The fact that a city department is legally restricted from doing some of their activities and spending money in certain ways is the other reason we should be concerned these duties go to a third party. Virtually everything we know about the 4CDC comes from news articles stating they have done some act the city isn't legally allowed to do itself. (if this is in dispute I will source this, but there have been countless uncontested examples laid out already and this is in the public domain).

    The laws in place which they skirt around are there for a reason, and abiding by their intent instead of exploiting loopholes would help prevent the cronyism that IMO leads to less than optimal use of our resources. Still, it doesn't mean those volunteering for the 4CDC don't simply see their actions as a means to an end they believe in. I think that's an important distinction to make.

  10. #10

    Re: Who is the $4CDC?

    Ok. I don't think I know anyone involved (I don't really run in those crowds), but I also have no trouble believing that "normal" people are involved in spending taxpayer money on what they think is ok, regardless whether most of the taxpayers disagree or not. That could also be a definition of government generally!

    But, I'm just wondering, if the purpose of the 4cdc is not to spend money where the leaders want, then what is its purpose? Does it have any factfinding meetings or anything like that? Does it make any decisions of its own? Also, some of you seem to know who the people in the 4cdc are - can you post who they are?

    I understand that public/private partnerships can be a good thing, but this isn't really a partnership - this looks like an abdication of public responsibility to a private entity.

    Edit:
    BTW - whenever I see "4cdc" my brain translates it to "For Carmel Dads Club."
    Georgie Porgie, Puddin' and Pie, Whatever the spin, the cake is a lie,
    When the facts come out, the the truth will stay, But will Georgie Porgie run away?

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